Posts by The Firm

33

Reformed Episcopal View of Christ

by thepreacher in

necessity of the old testament in understanding the work of christ

by curtis i. crenshaw .

i n the volume of the book, it is written of christ (

The Firm

Also, I have some questions for you TheFirm, and I very sincerely want to know the answers, if you can help me out:
Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Praying to Saints?
Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Praying and Worshiping in front of Statues, Icons, Pictures, etc?
Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Celibacy?
Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of giving Special Honor and Worship and Prayers to Mary?
Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary staying a Virgin forever?
Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary being a Co-Redeemer along with Christ?
Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Mary being a Co-Mediator along with Christ?
Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (any Translation), that supports the Doctrine of Catholic Confession?
I sincerely want to know which Bible Verses support these teachings.
I send my Christian Love.

I likewise send mine, Undf'ed. Peace be with you!

Well, some of these do have Biblical corroboration, other's don't. Not all of the above statements are Christ's teachings, thus aren't CC teachings either <g>. Again, I question where you got your information that these all are Catholic doctrine/dogma. It'd be like me asking a JW "Can you show me any Verses in the Bible (even your translation), that supports the Doctrine of only 150,000 people going to heaven?"

Yet taking nothing away from your sincerity, Undisfellowshipped, I much appreciate your candor and quest for knowledge. But I've gotten this approach by many of my non-Catholic friends many times before, and they've all been traps of some sort. Not saying that that is your intention, but most every time a charge of Marian dogma or celibacy or intercession of the saints is defended and explained, it falls on deaf ears and salivating chops. These have all been explained countless times before, but few will even acknowledge the wisdom of Christ's teachings on it. I could answer all of these above questions, but I don't think it'd do much good, because even the verses I quote would be subject to your own private interpretation whether or not the Church's interpretation fits your own. The #1 issue is obviously authority, for without establishing that, nothing will make sense. I'll be delighted to answer your questions above, but perhaps it's best to tackle authority. Do you agree or disagree?

I just wonder what you and others lurking must think about us Catholics. Clash certainly has made his/her feelings known, but honestly--how are we viewed? Are we all just lemmings going along with the CC just because we were raised that way? Are we viewed as so blind so as to not see the obvious flaws of "idols" and "cannibalism" and "pedophile priests" and "traditions" and "saint worship" allegedly in the CC? Do protestants think that it must be strong apathy that keeps us from not leaving despite all the charges? Are we all just mental midgets who cling for no apparent reason? Have I been unknowledgeble and uncharitable thus far in defending and explaining the faith of our forefathers thus far? Undf'ed, those are questions I'd like to know the anwers to . So perhaps we can mutually satisfy each other's inquiring minds.

33

Reformed Episcopal View of Christ

by thepreacher in

necessity of the old testament in understanding the work of christ

by curtis i. crenshaw .

i n the volume of the book, it is written of christ (

The Firm

Undisfellowshipped and clash: thanks for taking the time to reply. Sorry I just can't attend to this site as much, nor as often, as I'd like to.

Undf'ed: Great replies and sincerity in them. Much to reply to: About the circular reasoning, that was an expert deflection on your part. I'm used to seeing that kind of spotlight-shift from my JW friends . As far as the accuracy, let's compare: you're (presumably) bible-based, then point to the bible to justify beliefs. That's a 2-way circuit (which, by electricity's qualifications, isn't really a circuit). Knowledgable Catholics enjoy pointing to the Bible which so clearly points beyond itself to the church which sustains and interprets it (a full, true circuit). And since the Bible was written by the CC, using it to evangelize our non-Cathoic bretheren is like playing a home game. Home field-advantage!

You said, Was Jesus Christ's "energy" flowing through the Roman Catholic Church when the Church persecuted, tortured, and murdered people for trying to translate their own copies of the Scriptures?

Yes. If someone tried to break into your home and steal the very computer you were reading this on, would you not be compelled to protect yourself and your valuables? The protestant case has yet to be effectively made as to why it was necessary for vigilantes to extract the Bible from the CC. That's why it's clear that most non-catholics don't know much about Catholicism, because they don't know that a Catholic gets much more of God's Word at Mass than just the Bible (which by itself, the Mass is laden with). Our efforts, then, are to lift non-Catholics up to the full deposit of His sacred Word.

You said: "After all, all of the Apostle Paul's anscestors were Pharisees for hundreds of years until someone went AWOL recently and started this new Christian Religion."

Wow! You must then admit that Luther was equivalent to Christ in justifying switching Christian religions, which incidentally, is based on the fruit of the previous one. Since Luther et. al. were fallen-away Catholics, then their sweetest fruit could only be as sweet as the CC's least-rotten fruit. Then you'd have to explain from your basis (bible, right?) why/how Christ's teachings of Sola Scriptura/Fide are not only not mentioned by Christ, and not in the Bible, but somehow disappeared for 1500 years and magically reappeared. Sounds much like C.T. Russell resurrecting the dormant JW church after 1800 years, which the JW's cannot explain from the bible any more than any protestant can. (had to tie in a little JW tidbit since this is a JW forum )

Quote: So, Christ's Church is ANYWHERE where two or more True Christians gather together in Jesus' Name.

No, Christ is anywhere where 2 or more are gathered in His name. He did not say his CHURCH was. He is decidedly not where 2+ people are gathered against His name and His established teachings. So is Jesus among and blessing the JW's at Kingdom Hall? Was Jesus among Judas' gang as Judas was plotting to hand Him over? In your opinion, was Jesus there during the Crusades? (GASP!). How about in Mass now--where His precious Body and Blood are there to feed us (Rev 3:20)? If you truly believe your above quote, then you'll have no problem going to Mass on Sunday. After all, He's there like you said.

Quote: Also, how do you explain what happened when the Roman Catholics were PERSECUTING people who owned their own copy of the Scriptures, and who translated their own translation of the Scriptures?

How would banks react if you went in and ripped out all their chained pens? Many ambitious people did steal and attempt to translate bibles, and did so outside of ecclesiastical authority and therefore without the Holy Spirit's promised safeguard against error (infallability). Thus, obviously, many erroneous and dangerous errors were made. Those copies had to be destroyed or else the faithful would be poisoned by them, and the perpetraters had to be persecuted for plucking the fruit (Bible) from the tree (CC). Gee, sounds like something Eve did a few years ago...

37

Other religions are abusive too.,

by wednesday in

jw
friends

i know jw's are abusive psychologicaly to their members, however so are other churches.

case in point, i knew a woman who would not marry b/c the pope said not to use birth control.

she did not want children, and she could not find it within herself to go against the pope.

The Firm

bluesapphire, you're on fire!

wednesday--my heart goes out to you completely. I'd give almost anything to have one of my dear JW friends to even be "looking around".

Notice the comment someone made earlier about if you find some religion claiming entire truth, run--don't walk--to the nearest exit. It's clever, but not valid at all. Since Jesus claimed to be the truth, did his apostles then run/walk to the nearest exit? NO. Rather, if you find a religion's teachings to be in error, then leave. Since Christ claimed to be truth, know that His church must bear the same resemblance. Would a man serve anyone a glass of wine that hade even a solitary drop of urine in it? NO. Our Father in Heaven certainly wouldn't father his children on earth that way. Therefore no one should be consuming any religious doctrine that contains any amount of doctrinal error mixed in with some truth. And if a church does have the complete fullness of God's truth, they'd better claim it--just as Jesus did. Only the Catholic Church makes such a claim. The nay-sayers say "ohh, well just look at the history of abuses...". I'd say look at the apostles. Judas didn't corrupt Christ's teachings, just Judas himself. Despite the countless saints that preceded us in the faith, some people prefer to only point out the Judases.... I'd also ask why anyone else would knowingly and willingly practice and spread a religion that they fully acknolwledge is not 100% Christ's teachings. That's essentially willingness to drink that glass of wine/urine, and to serve it to their children.

Thanks for sharing your ordeal with us and know that you've got a lot of support here. Good luck and God speed!

3

Scape - goat

by Blueblades in

jw
friends

a person,group or thing upon whom the "blame" for the mistakes or crimes of other's is thrust,making them a scapegoat.what do you think?has the wt.

society been guilty of doing this to you?

if so,how so?as for me ,the answer is yes.from the time i read the book,"things in which it is impossible for god to lie".i couldn't see the words,"however, if "we" are caught in a lie, it's all your fault,it's your mistake.when "we" were proven to be mistaken,it's still all your fault.ssshhh, keep quiet you scapegoat!

The Firm

Bingo. Just as for years the WTS was proclaiming the coming of '75, and when it came and went, the Society expertly deflected the failed expectation away from the shepherd onto the sheep for having gotten their expectations too high.

8

OSU-Michigan - the best rivalry in sports

by DanTheMan in

.

go bucks!!!!.

if they can beat those wolverines, it's off to tempe.

The Firm

Woo-hooo!! That's my kind of party. I'll be down there by 9am. Pray that my car doesn't get turned over.....especially by me. Go bucks!

33

Reformed Episcopal View of Christ

by thepreacher in

necessity of the old testament in understanding the work of christ

by curtis i. crenshaw .

i n the volume of the book, it is written of christ (

The Firm

Whoa, easy on the newbie, fellahs. Ha ha, my what large teeth you have! Well Clash, if you're hell-bent (hell, get it?) on being mean to me, well I'll just have to be extra nice to you. Really though, I come in peace.

Clash: Yep, I must have been dislexic on the 9 and 6 thing. Either way, Heb 9 and/or 6, does not deny the Mass one bit. In fact, it supports it, also since Hebrews was written by a Catholic. The only thing clear is that you have absolutely no idea what the Mass is or isn't. The CC doctrine has not changed one iota since its inception in 33AD. Welp, you might think the CC is Satan's synagouge, but he's tried to destroy the CC for 2000 years to no avail. What's he done to divide yours? Prespertyrianism has changed its doctrine and split countless times since its inception in the 16th ctry. The Presbyterian religion hates Catholics, so I'm not the least bit offended at your stance. In fact, I probably would hate me too if I were you. Oh, ever heard of Scott Hahn?

Undisfellowhipped: hello my noble berean friend! Thanks for your generous replies. On the Eucharist: Dozens of texts, but one should suffice:Mt 26:26 (cf Mk 14:22ff., Lk 22:17ff.). Also, Paul indicates a severe penalty for not receiving the Body and Blood worthily in 1Cor11:23-29, which hasn't changed even today. Further, St. Irenaus in 110 AD wrote, "{heretics} abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ..." (Letter to Smyraeans 6,2). How true today as well as in 110 AD.

Undish: regarding authority, all 12 of those verses you quoted corroborate completely with the CC. Again, I question your and Clash's knowledge on Catholic doctrine. It's evidently not what you think it is. Anyway, basing one's beliefs on the Bible, then turning around and pointing to the Bible to justify those beliefs is the pluperfect form of circular reasoning. It's like taking an extension cord, plugging the male-end into the female-end, and expecting to get electricity out of it. Plug into the church from which all energy flows, and has flowed for 2000 years. After all, all of your anscestors were Catholic for hundreds of years until someone went AWOL recently. Reminds me in Acts when Saul was persecuting the church. Christ appeared to him and asked, "Saul, why thou persecuteth me?" Saul COULD have said "Hey there buddy boy, I wasn't persecuting YOU, just this here church!". Obviously, persecuting the church IS persecuting Christ. I know that none of us wish to do that.

Sorry to ramble: just wanted to be thorough. Peace be with you both.

37

Other religions are abusive too.,

by wednesday in

jw
friends

i know jw's are abusive psychologicaly to their members, however so are other churches.

case in point, i knew a woman who would not marry b/c the pope said not to use birth control.

she did not want children, and she could not find it within herself to go against the pope.

The Firm

Wednesday, are you really considering leaving JW? Sounds like you're searching for the lessest of the remaining evils. Well, since ya asked, I'll toss a good word in for the CC. Her 4 marks beat any other church's marks: One (same liturgy across the world), holy (founded by Christ himself), catholic (universal, excluding no one), and apostolic (unbroken chain of clergy since Christ & the Apostles). CC also wrote and settled on the canon of the Bible, so the NT is based on the CC, not the other way around. Just a few tidbits there.

I'm sure there are things that seem to be repulsive, like confession (Jn 20:23), but I strongly encourage seeking the wisdom of those things before rejecting them. Venerating Mary/saints, purgatory, confession, etc. usually get laughed off without an ounce of consideration. Bottom line: judge a medicine by those who take it, not by those who don't. Feel free to drop me an email if you'd prefer to chat less-publicly. HTH!

17

Getting Married as a Catholic

by teenyuck in

jw
friends

my husband and i got into a discussion about joining the local catholic church, signing up for 2.5% of our income and getting married by a priest.

never went to church until 5 years ago.

we agreed to look into it.

The Firm

teenyuck,

Just a thought here, but the CC would need to investigate your specific case. Particularly of concern is validity of your former and/or current marriage. If a valid marriage has not been contracted, then there's nothing to renew except sinful union only, and a priest can be no part of that or else it's scandal. Just letting you know that it may be a process, but there's a wisdom to it although not immediately apparent. Being patient and understanding may be the toughest test for you, but hang in there.

On another note, I'm floored to see the words "JW" and "Catholic" in the same breath on this forum. Might be because I'm a newbie, but this is the last place I'd expect to see charitable answers from people here that would otherwise have zero interest in supporting anything Catholic. I've got to ask what Mass must seem like to you when you do go? (don't have to answer that, just curious).

Finally, this might interest you: http://www.saintjoe.com/products/8001.html It's a 3-tape set of Mary Kochan's "My Journey From the Watchtower" where she chronicles her jump from JW to Catholic. If you ever wondered why anyone would join the CC, much less a JW, this series is very riveting and informative. Just fyi.

Good luck, and "may the peace of the Lord be with you always..."

-alan

8

OSU-Michigan - the best rivalry in sports

by DanTheMan in

.

go bucks!!!!.

if they can beat those wolverines, it's off to tempe.

The Firm

Yes!! Go Buckeyes!! Hey, where in Columbus is there a good spot to camp out and watch the game? I'm about an hour and a half north and just can't sit at home--gotta be in Buckeye country. But I'm assuming that the city's going to be too crazy to have any hope of finding a sports bar that isn't nuts-packed. Any advice on this?

9

Non-JW needs advice

by agr8day in

jw
friends

first off, those who have left the watchtower are extraordinarily courageous and thank you so much for having the fortitude to post your stories publicly.

you are all no doubt helping untold numbers of people.

i am catholic and i have a friend who is a jw.

The Firm

AAAAAAAHHHH!!! agr8day, you're just the kind of person in the right kind of situation I've been looking for. I'm going to live vicariously thru your experience with this, for I already went through it once and I'd give anything (except my soul) to do it again.

You're in an amazingly strong predicament to help rope this friend out of the Society. Mostly because of your friendliness and Catholicity. Believe me, being Catholic is the least threatening to a JW, which means that not much is expected in the way of apologetics. How well do you know your Catholic faith? Non-catechised Catholics make terrific JW's, so it's obviously important to be able to know, understand, and defend essential matters should the situation present itself. Here's a great link of some JW apologetics with a Catholic standpoint:

http://www.catholic.com/library/stumpers_for_jehovah_witnesse.asp

Please click on my profile and send me an email if you'd like further info. If you eventually want to help pull your friend out, I (and others here) can help. May the peace of the Lord be with you always....

-alan